Radio interview - ABC Radio National

ANDY PARK, HOST: Joining me now on RN Drive is Patrick Gorman, the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister. Welcome to you.

PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER AND ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE: Thank you, Andy. Good to be here.

PARK: Israel's Ambassador to Australia today said, and I quote, I find it difficult to understand how Australia can support Israel's right to defend its people from terrorist aggression, whilst also voting in support of a ceasefire that will embolden Hamas and enable it to resume its attacks on Israelis. End quote. What do you say to that criticism?

GORMAN: Well, what I'd say to everyone is that we also saw a statement from the Prime Minister this morning noting that we see that the Australian Government, there is no role for Hamas in the future governance of Gaza. In terms of the statement or the resolution that went through at the United Nations, that was very clear about an unconditional release of all hostages, something that I know we want to see happen. And, of course, it's important that your listeners recognise that this was not just Australia voting for this resolution. There was 153 countries that voted in favour. Australia has taken a very consistent principle position of condemning the terrorist attacks by Hamas on the 7 October. But we've also been very consistent about upholding the UN charter, upholding international law and upholding international humanitarian law.

PARK: But let's set aside the fact that there were these 150 odd other countries that voted for this ceasefire, for Australia's role, are we now saying that Israel can no longer have this right to defend itself, considering the death toll of Palestinians?

GORMAN: What Australia has always said is that Israel does have a right to defend itself. But the way that it defends itself matters. And what we are witnessing, what the world is witnessing, is a harrowing number of civilian deaths, including children. This can't continue. That's why, given the catastrophic humanitarian situation that we see in Gaza, we thought this was an appropriate way to express, how do we find that path to a humanitarian ceasefire? To make sure that we protect and value every Palestinian life, every Israeli life, because what we're seeing is causing so much hurt on both sides. And again, I'll just remind your listeners that the motion from the United Nations General Assembly also demands an immediate and unconditional release of all of those hostages taken by Hamas. And that is something that is I want to see happen immediately, as does the Australian Government.

PARK: Just looking at the Australian Government's position since October, I mean, Australia controversially abstained from casting an affirmative vote on a similar motion. We've heard Penny Wong on countless occasions call for steps to be taken before an enduring ceasefire. What's changed?

GORMAN: What we've seen is that different resolutions have different pieces that we have to assess the entirety of the resolution. I think some of your listeners would know, if they've been listening throughout the day, that we sought some amendments to the resolution that were ultimately not voted up. But we put forward those amendments. And what we're seeing is, we did see for a period, some humanitarian pauses and a temporary ceasefire that was welcomed, that allowed aid and support for civilians. And since then we've seen a resumption of conflict between Israel and Hamas. What I think we want to see is, that there is huge concern over the humanitarian situation and we recognise that it's both Palestinian and Israeli civilian populations who need protection. And again, that's something that this resolution called for and one of the reasons that Australia supported it.

PARK: Ahead of the vote, US President Joe Biden said that Israel is losing international support because of what he's called 'its indiscriminate bombing of Palestinians'. The US voted against this General Assembly resolution. You'd have to admit that US support for Israel is waning. Do you agree?

GORMAN: Look, it's appropriate that I explain to your listeners why Australia made our decision. I don't want to speak on behalf of the United States or others. As you've outlined, they voted in a different way. But we thought that in Australia's interests, how we have engaged on a principle basis, both in the United Nations General assembly and in other forums and indeed in other conversations, we thought this was the right position for Australia to take in our national interests, to reflect Australia's view that we do need to get to that point where we get to a sustainable ceasefire.

PARK: I want to stay with the UN. If you just join me. It's 4:13. Patrick Gorman is the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister on RN Drive. A new draft agreement has been published at the climate summit in Dubai, in COP 28, it calls on countries to transition away from the use of fossil fuels but not phase them out. Language demanded by many of the 198 participants at the meeting. This language, does it go far enough?

GORMAN: What we've seen at COP 28 is still consistent with what has been agreed by the G7 and others. That is that we get to 2050 without the ongoing use of unabated fossil fuels. That is a good step. That is a step in the right direction, because what we know, and what Australia knows is that both the economic opportunities and the interests of all people on this planet lie in getting to that net zero by 2050, if not sooner. That's the approach that Chris Bowen has taken in leading our delegation there. It's the right thing to do and also it's where we're putting our government investment. We had the Treasurer release the Mid-year Fiscal and Economic Outlook today, again backing in those investments in renewables, and that transition. That's what we're doing at home. We're being consistent on the world stage. And I also note that when you see from many of the major energy producers in Australia, they are also acknowledging that they need to do the transition for their customers abroad and they need to do the transition in the sorts of products that they are producing to make sure that we can secure the energy needs of tomorrow. And we know that those energy needs of tomorrow are clean energy needs. And that's, again, what Australia has advocated for.

PARK: I want to step back from the big international negotiating tables and to the kitchen tables of Australians, where their own budgets are no doubt always being looked over to see if there's any more fat that can be trimmed. Today, your government released its mid year budget update. Treasurer Jim Chalmers says a second surplus is within striking distance, but doesn't want to claim it just yet. Why the hesitancy here? Because I think the question most Australians are asking themselves is, if the budget is in such good, the federal budget is in such good nick, why isn't mine?

GORMAN: Well, on your question about why we can't forecast a surplus is I think we had year on, year on, year governments telling people they were going to have a surplus, not delivering it. We are the only government in the last 15 years that has delivered a surplus. And one of the reasons we've done that is because, you know, that's how we put downward pressure on inflation while still trying to find resources to do those things we can do to support household budgets without adding to inflation. And I know that that puts us in a really challenging position as a nation. And it's obviously, particularly as we get to Christmas, it's a time that a lot of people are feeling the squeeze and we recognize that.

PARK: But now is precisely the time that people would need some support, some further cost of living relief. I mean, I know that we're at the risk of encouraging inflation here, but now is the time, would it not? We've got a budget that's looking good and people's household incomes and budgets not.

GORMAN: I want the Australian people to know is that when government spends, if we do it in a way that isn't smart, carefully targeted, it adds to inflation. And so you get that problem of maybe a good announcement for a day, but you're not actually dealing with that core underlying problem of inflation which the MYEFO released today notes that we have persistent inflation and that, as a result, we have higher interest rates. We're trying to get that inflation under control. Our job in the bit that we're responsible for as a government, is to try and rein in government spending. We've had some $49 billion of savings and reprioritisation. And where you've had increased tax revenues in the latest round, 92 per cent of those increased tax revenues have gone back to the bottom line, paying off debt. Because we are like, this is how serious we are about getting inflation under control. Noting that at the end of this year, the start of this year, childcare was more expensive than it is at the end of the year. The start of the year, medicines on the PBS were more expensive than they are at the end of the year. The start of the year, the minimum wage was lower than it is now under a Labor government.

PARK: Haven't all those things been wiped out by inflation?

GORMAN: What we know is we have persistent inflation. So, we need to take those difficult decisions to keep money in the budget, paying off debt and where we can, we will provide that cost of living relief. And I know for people in my electorate of Perth, what we've done, making childcare cheaper has made a difference to about 6,000 families. And that's the same story across the country. These things do make a difference. And for those who are really doing it tough we did in the last Budget, prioritise people on JobSeeker, single parents, those who rely on Commonwealth Rent Assistance. All of those things got significant investments. They've been in people's pockets now for a couple of months making a real difference.

PARK: We'll have to leave it there. Patrick Gorman is the assistant Minister to the Prime Minister. Thank you for your time. Good afternoon to you.

GORMAN: Thank you.